TechTalk4364 Service Bulletin/Repair Instructions

Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 12:09 PM

Hey guys, I have a 2014 114SD with a DD13 in it (serial# GB1642) that has had aftertreatment issues for most

of it's life according to Penske. About 5 months ago the 1-box was replaced at another local Detroit dealer

under the advise of Detroit CSC since it had a 4364/18 issue. DDEC reports shows 58% idle time. I was told

that when the 1-box was replaced that the DPF's were CLEANED by Penske. The NOx sensors were replaced

as well as the def doser. A couple months later it had another aftertreatment issue and it went back to the other

Detroit dealer to which they said they found "trash" in the "supply line" and cleaned it out, the tech story was

very vague. I now have the truck, I did all 4364/18 troubleshooting and am now working with Mike at Detroit

CSC on the issue. When performing a parked regen the nox Conversion starts off good at 90-95% with the

inlet being at 300 ish ppm and outlet at 10-20 ppm. As soon as the fuel doser starts dosing and dpf inlet/outlet

temps start to rise past 700 the nox conversion goes to crap. The outlet nox will gradually rise until it reaches

about 290ppm then stays that way throughout the regen with nox conversion at about 18%. I did a low temp

atd with doser unplugged and found nox sensors are reading within 10 ppm during that. If I do a low temp atd

with doser plugged in the outlet nox started at 200 ppm then gradually went down to 0 then gradually went up

to 100 ppm and stays there. I did 6 def quantity tests in order to ensure that the def doser is not malfunctioning.

The engine did a surge due to QCV failure but that was fixed already under the advise of CSC but that didn't

change anything as far as NOx conversion. Mike at CSC and myself believe that since the DPF's were cleaned

during 1-box replacement that possibly the DPF precious metals may have "stained" the catalyst. I'm currently

waiting on approval to remove and inspect the DPF's. Any thoughts on what the issue is? Anyone seen this

before?

EDIT: Uploaded regen, low temp ATD with doser disconnected, and DDEC report.

• (3ALHG3DV2FDGB1642) 4-2-2019 0932.33.DrumrollLog 2.2 MB

• (3ALHG3DV2FDGB1642) 4-1-2019 0910.06.DrumrollLog 4.4 MB

• 040219123456AA.XTR 8.3 KB

Tags: 4364/18
Talbert Simonian 1,802 posts since Nov 21, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 3:27 AM

I wonder if the DPF's possibly damaged by something up steam? You said you check the DEF quantity. But

what about the quality? If some thing upstream is causing the first issue that condemned the onebox. That

issue could still be there.
Chaz Trimble 1,360 posts since Feb 2, 2015

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 3:56 AM
1
Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...

I would check the DEF as Talbert Simonian mentioned for quality (check for strong ammonia

smell too). I would be highly suspect of the DPF’s being cleaned. Look at the outlets for pin holes
and hot spots due to the ash not properly being removed. Also check for any exhaust leaks

or misaligned DPF’s at the Vband clamps. I agree with the CSC that the washcoat may have

migrated. Looking through repair history through all possible avenues (fault history, VT, warranty,

invoices, etc) is critical. Especially if the unit has been a problem child. Likely the unit has not

had the original failure repaired leading to repeat repairs to the ATD. Any logged or previous

logged faults can be huge in finding the failure. ATD checklist should be completed, warranty

letters used for help, and definitely would go through the ATD failure guide. Post a log file in

this discussion and we can look it over. Click edit and attach after copying link and pasting log

to desktop. When browsing select the log file on the desktop, click open, and it should attach.

Also attach the DDEC reports as well. Just gotta navigate to the DDEC report file and copy the

extracted file to the desktop and attach.
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 12:17 PM

Talbert Simonian I did check the quality and smell when doing the troubleshooting. The DEF quality is

34% which I know is on the high end of the spectrum but it's still in spec. The smell is not abnormal, smells

like regular DEF. I looked this morning in the ticket notes on DTNA connect and found that a note was

added saying that it was recommended that the DPF's be replaced during the 1-box replacement due to a

previous over-temp issue. I will add the log file and DDEC report right now.
Talbert Simonian 1,802 posts since Nov 21, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 6:14 PM

CSC saying replace the DPF instead of cleaning. Maybe on issue.
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 10:58 PM

Yeah apparently CSC advised to replace the DPF's when the box was replaced 5 months ago, I still don't know

who actually replaced the box. It's beyond me why Penske thought cleaning the DPF's was suitable if they

were clearly advised to replace.
Talbert Simonian 1,802 posts since Nov 21, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 8:01 AM

I wonder if there is a repair history. Of something upstream that may have caused the damage in the first place.

If not is there a issue still there upstream.
Michael Palumbo 1,496 posts since Nov 13, 2014
2
Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...
Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 12:34 PM

I'm not too fluent in OWL so I check by going to Vehicle Info - Warrant Information - Engine Claims

History.
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 1:40 PM
Good idea, Michael Palumbo I have never done that before.

Talbert Simonian As far as warranty claims go there have been no upstream components replaced.
Jesse Gutierrez 458 posts since Mar 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 5:43 AM

This is kinda on the far end of the spectrum but we had a truck with the same code tons of diag time chasing

the fault come to find the engine was dusted this was a Ryder or Penske truck as well
Pierre Beauchesne 292 posts since Nov 11, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 12:15 PM

having same problem with a dd16, one box is 2 weeks old, dpf were reused because Customer will not keep

truck for long and they were at 80%, atd checklist been done twice, now the case is at csc and no answer.
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 12:45 PM
3
Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...
Well hopefully we can solve the issues with the both of these units. I'm confident that working with CSC the

issue will be resolved. I posted on here in hopes that if someone else has the same issue that it can help them

as well.
Pierre Beauchesne 292 posts since Nov 11, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement May 2, 2019 7:31 PM

my issue is solve, csc had us replace all injectors and replace onebox again as progressive damage.
Kelvin Voss 8 posts since Dec 19, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 12:22 PM

What happenes if you do a parked regen with the def doser unplugged. It might be a build up of def in the one

box. I have seen as high as 90% conversion with the def doser unplugged during a regular regen
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 12:43 PM

I have not done a parked regen with doser unplugged but I did verify that there is no DEF buildup in the 1-box

during the troubleshooting for 4364.
Pierre Beauchesne 292 posts since Nov 11, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 1:01 PM

tech did troubleshoot and result was to install def awning kit, but we don't even have def build up, it's a new

installed one box, Customer did one or two trip with truck..
Scott Trippel 3,991 posts since Dec 13, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 3:11 PM

Hello Mathew, I was looking at the first log file and I see the inlet nox really low for a DD13. Below 300, spec is

400 to 500.

This could be the issue. The model for SCR conversion is what it follows.

The second log file I see you have the doser unplugged doing a nox sensor check and the run quite close. but I

still feel there is a issue with the inlet nox sensor, and I say this because we see it all the time.

• GHG 14 Regen Values.pdf 27.6 KB Preview

• GHG 17 Regen values.pdf 24.7 KB Preview
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 5, 2019 4:09 PM

Thank you, Scott! I did read on another post where you had mentioned those NOX values and I did make a

mental note that this unit seems low. However, with the modified regen values and fuel maps for GHG14 and
4
Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...
GHG17 I wasn't sure what from the original regen cheat sheets still apply. I'm not saying the nox sensors

aren't bad but they were replaced just a short time ago, they are still shiny.
Penske San Marcos 23 posts since Dec 6, 2016

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Jun 23, 2019 11:03 PM

where do you find inlet nox values, it's not listed in successful regen values, just to be within 50ppm
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 1:35 PM
Things just are not adding up here! I didn't know that I could use OWL to find these tech stories so thanks

again Michael Palumbo. Apparently the box was also replaced in 2015 under warranty????

Scott Trippel I'm seeing several instances in this units life where nox sensors have been replaced, Farther up

in the thread I posted a picture of the engine warranty claims which shows 3 instances while in warranty and

also at least one other time 5 months ago when the box was allegedly replaced again.

Talbert Simonian I do agree with you in that I think there is some kind of upstream issue going on here.
Jesse Gutierrez 458 posts since Mar 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 5:00 PM
5
Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...
A Picture is started to be painted
Joel Harp 18 posts since Jan 18, 2018

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 7:24 PM

I cant look at the log file currently. But if what your describing is true, it sounds like you have heavy def

buildup. I second what Kelvin said, and trying to do a regen with doser disconnected and see if you are

converting any nox. Run a full regen with doser disconnected. Your inlet and outlet nox sensor should equalize.

I have had to run back to back full regens, with doser disconnected to fully burn out the DEF buildup.

If your nox sensor never equalize you need to find out which sensor is reading off. 300 ppm is low for DD13

which indicates lower combustion temp. You could be using more EGR than indicated. Definitely check your

delta p ports.

If your nox sensors do equalize and it still doesn't convert at high temp then it sounds like a classic case

of DPF over temp. I suspect your DPF is being over temped, causing the high temp SCR coating to be

contaminated.

I wonder what would happen if you put a DPF that has already been over temped in to a new one box, if it

would damage a new SCR. I recommend checking fault history and VT for DPF over temp faults. Also doing a

ATD checklist and snap test to check for anything causing over temps.
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 8:02 PM

I appreciate the input Joel! Is it possible for DEF to buildup out of sight in the box? I have used a borescope to

inspect and everything is perfectly clean inside when inspecting through the doser hole. I did the inspection for

buildup before ever doing the first regen during this service event and also inspected after the regens and still

nothing visual. According to Mike at CSC back in November when the box was replaced for what I believe to

be the second time Detroit said that the filters need to be replaced due to over temp but I was also informed by

Penske that they "cleaned" them and did not replace them.
Joel Harp 18 posts since Jan 18, 2018

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 6, 2019 8:24 PM

Yes it is possible to have def buildup in the mix tube and not be able to see it. A DPF that has been over

temped NEEDS to be replaced cleaning it doesn't replace the platinum that melts out of DPF. This platinum is

what contaminates the high temp coating of the SCR and ruins the high temp efficiency. So it possible that the

old DPF still had unreleased platinum that has contaminated the new one box. I will link a good document that

everyone should get familiar with. The temps and pressure will not be accurate but it has good information on

regen and one box.
6
Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...
https://www.dtnasolutions.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/11038-1-15456/

EPA10_HDE_NOx_Conversion_DEF_Quality_Issues.pdf
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 8, 2019 3:55 PM

Thank you for the document, Joel! I am still waiting for the customer approval of diag time so that I can remove

and inspect the DPF's as the request of Detroit. I'm hoping they let me find the root cause of this issue.
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Apr 11, 2019 12:34 AM

Update: I did perform the ATD checklist with no issues found. I removed the DPF's and found no visual issues,

damage, hot spots. I sent pictures and spoke with CSC. Mike at CSC advised to replace the 1-box and dpf's

due to the previous over temp causing the release of precious metal into the SCR catalyst.
Brian Bergman 1 posts since Feb 21, 2015

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Jun 11, 2019 3:32 AM

Was this issue ever resolved? I do not see any replies with a final resolution. I am currently dealing with this

identical issue. All data appears valid and normal when regen is initiated and once DPF temps begin to rise

(DPF fueling begins) you can watch NOX conversion drop from 98% to 0%. DEF dosing is shut off completely

for some some reason. My inlet NOX is approx 390 ppm during regen. Eventually inlet and outlet will level off. I

have been working with CSC but I don't feel like we're making any traction on this.
Robby Dabernig 119 posts since Nov 14, 2014

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Jun 12, 2019 10:50 AM

I just posted something similar to what we found. Did you have over temp codes too? If so, check your

camshafts, and I don't mean by checking for over speeds or slipping the tool in. Run the engine with the valve

cover off and watch your exhaust rockers, and intake rockers if they have a double lobe set up and make

sure they are in sync. We found that mating rockers on cylinder 2 for exhaust were about 30 degrees out and

you could watch them open at different times with engine running. This had no over speeds and timing tool

checked good.
Matthew Roose 73 posts since Jul 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Jun 24, 2019 12:31 PM

I my situation there was an overtemp that happened on the previous dpf and 1-box. We have not seen this unit

come back since replacing the 1-box.
Victor Dodevski 19 posts since Aug 6, 2019
7
Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box...
Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Nov 24, 2020 11:34 PM

I’m dealing with same/similar situation.. New 1Box , brand new DPF’s , all sensors new on the 1box, new egr &

actuator.. Starts with 95% efficiency for the first 10-15 min than goes to 10-20%.. Air Intake pres 26psi, Actual

torque load 50% .. DD15 ghg14
Jesse Gutierrez 458 posts since Mar 5, 2017

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Nov 25, 2020 4:22 AM

What caused the original one box to failure ? What was found on the ATD checklist
Victor Dodevski 19 posts since Aug 6, 2019

Re: Recurring 4364/18 even after 1-box replacement Nov 25, 2020 2:05 PM

Noisy during regen, outlet nox higher ppm than inlet, high temperature on scr outlet( i guess cracked scr) ..

When took out dpf one of the doc was pushed forward
8

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